Dave: My guest today is John Melvin. And John is a guest that I've wanted to have for a long time. He's somebody I've known for quite a while. And he has a great story because he actually launched a podcast three years ago and it was great. And unfortunately it did what frequently happens is it quote faded after just four episodes and he has not published in two and a half years. So we talked a bit about why that happened, lessons he's learned, advice he might have for other people considering starting their podcast. And then we also talked about his engineering firm. They have a really unique approach to high-end commercial and residential mechanical engineering design, and they do some things around lead certification and sustainability. Anyway, John is a really interesting, very thoughtful cerebral guy. And I hope you enjoy listening to this episode as much as I enjoyed participating. And if you're considering a podcast he's got some great wisdom in there for you.
This is David spray and welcome to another episode of the podcast. My guest today is John Melvin. And John is a really interesting entrepreneur and he has a BS in mechanical engineering from Montana State University at Bozeman. He founded JM Engineering nearly two decades ago, and the firm creates engineering solutions for design construction and property management professionals across a variety of industries and applications. The firm maintains a primary focus on green building sustainable energy and seamless low impact project implementation. The firm also has a podcast called How Great Buildings Work.
John is married to Wendy. They have two children and they reside in Missoula, Montana. John is an avid cyclist, which is one of many things we have in common. John, welcome to the podcast.
John: Hey David, thanks so much for having me.
Dave: It's my pleasure. I've been looking forward to this for some time. So let's jump right in. So what prompted you to launch JM engineering?
John: This goes back to from the time I was just a little boy and my dad he was a orthopedic surgeon and had his own practice. And from early on time, he had always told me that how important and nice it was to own your own business so that you could be in control of your own destiny. And so I knew that I didn't want to be a doctor, I wanted to be an engineer. I actually wanted to fly jets and I wanted to design jets but I also knew that I wanted to be my own boss and I knew that more than anything else. And so I was a partner in a different firm prior to starting JM Engineering. And ultimately back in 2002, we all went our separate ways and that led me into starting JM engineering.
Dave: I see. And by the way it just dawned on me what inspired the JM in JM Engineering, I'm guessing pretty original. Did you have to hire like a branding firm to…
John: Well, interestingly enough, my brother-in-law's videos, at the time I did not have any employees and he said, "What is JM stand for? Just me?" And so that's kind of then my inside joke with it is it's not my initials, but yeah, there was a lot of originality that went…
Dave: That's great. So we met in strategic coach a while back. We were both long time clients with strategic coach. And one of the concepts they have in there is what's called a right fit client. And so talk to me about what the characteristics are, the people and the companies that really make for a right fit client for you.
John: Yeah, that's a great question. And that I do love that concept and it really helped me define the client and the characteristics of all the different clients we work with and who we wanted to work for. And really what that is, how I could boil that down is our right fit client is someone that is wanting to work with us, not having to work with us or needing to, and a client that is looking for someone to find innovative solutions to their problems. And someone that enjoys what we bring to the table with creativity and that people aren't looking for us to provide the same type of service on every single project that every project is unique. So that's one of the big qualities that we look for in our clients.
Dave: Yeah, I can appreciate that. So, in summary somebody who wants to work with you, not somebody who has to or needs to they want innovative solutions and just reading between the lines, it also sounds like it matters that they actually appreciate you and your firm.
John: Absolutely. And I think that comes back to the wants to work with you and has to work with us and the ones that want to work with us, they're coming to us because of we don't treat this as ABC Engineering group. Again we provide a unique service and that's not a right fit for everyone and that's okay. Again we're looking in order for a project to be really successful, everyone has to be aligned and have the common goals to have a successful job.
Dave: Understood. Understood. Well, let's flip it now. We talked about who the ideal client is for you. What makes you and your firm unique that your clients view your firm as being unique? What are some of the characteristics of your firm that makes it unique?
John: So I think really the big thing that makes us unique and it is the culture that I I have here with this business is we don't look at... So we provide design services for structural, for mechanical, heating, ventilating, air conditioning, lighting, electrical design. And when we look at a project it's not we're just going to design a heating and ventilating system. We look at it as what is this project used for? So we do a lot of K-12 projects.
We finished a children's psychiatric hospital project. And what makes us unique about that is we are designing systems that are there for the hospital so children can heal faster and better. When we go to design a school, that's an area that I'm very passionate about. We're designing healthy learning environments and this goes back for us way pre COVID. But a healthy ventilation system it keeps kids from being sick and allows them to be in the classroom where they can learn. And so that's what makes us unique is again, we're not looking at it as just another project. And we really have a high emphasis on what is this building going to be used for over its lifetime?
Dave: Yeah, I can appreciate that uniqueness. Or if I'm hearing you correctly, you're saying that you guys go another level deeper and understand by understanding the ultimate specific purpose of that building, as opposed to just like a spec commercial building where you just build the shell and then each tenant will do their own design that you're taking it a step further.
John: Exactly. Yes.
Dave: Okay. So talk to me about sustainable building. Is that something you've always been interested in or has it evolved over time?
John: It's always been an interest. Me being a mechanical engineer for me, I've always looked at things of how do things work. I've always had a fascination with that, but then taking it a step further, I've had an interest of how can this work more efficiently? How can it work easier? And so we've really had an emphasis on sustainable design. It's just in recent years there's been new certifications that have come about with LEAD, which is US Green Building Council, and there's a few other certification programs that buildings can do. But interestingly enough, for us we've always been designing our buildings, our systems as if it's a LEAD certified building. Because again, that's our view is that a system should be just as energy efficient and user-friendly as possible.
Dave: Yeah. Peter Diamandis has this expression, that constraints foster creativity, that it's the constraints that cause the creativity thinking inside of an artificially small box, and what you're saying kind of reminds me of that by forcing sustainability to the conversation or LEAD certification, it automatically results in a more efficient building, right?
John: It does. And I think that those programs are great. But I go back to that's how every building should be built. I think again, it's a great program because it adds a very clear good layer of accountability to make sure that there isn't waste on the project and that the building is being done efficiently as possible and as healthy as possible. So again I love the US Green Building Council process for that. I'm a very big proponent of it, but at the same time we approach every project as if it is a LEAD project. And it doesn't add really that much upfront cost to a project. And again, that's just how we think the built environment should be.
Dave: Yeah, even though I'm not an engineer I've always implicitly had a... There's always been an appeal to efficiency to me in all things. And so that's the aspect of the whole LEAD and sustainability that makes sense is the idea that you pay a little more upfront, that you get it back in cost savings and operational savings and other... That you get a financial payback and then there's also the intangibles of a building being more comfortable and enjoyment of being in the building higher. And so yeah, I get it.
In fact, you had a guest Cath Williams on one of your podcasts talking all about LEAD and it was really fascinating to hear her perspective because it really sounded like it had been kind of an uphill battle for her in many ways to try to pull these developers along and show them how much more efficient it would be to operate that building spending five or 10 more-
John: You're. Right. And that was I think that's always been a struggle on a lot of projects is, and understandably so people are looking at the bottom line and what is it going to cost to build this building on day one. But unfortunately what gets missed an awful lot of the time is what is it going to cost to operate this building over time? And that leads into so many things of the occupancy rate or if you own the building and how healthy are your people, are you reducing sick days by 10, 20%? That alone is a huge number over the course of the life of your business. Are people as productive as they can be because they have adequate lighting in their offices and the temperature is consistent, not drafty? And so there's all these little things that I think it has taken a lot of time for these studies to be done to actually have numbers behind to back it up that yes, spending a little bit more upfront does have big payoffs down the road.
Dave: Yeah. And I'm more familiar with this concept with residential construction because my wife and I have owned a number of houses through the years. Some we bought while they're under construction, some were 20 years old. And it's always so frustrating because like when we bought our first house that was under construction, we thought that builder grade meant the top of the line. And we discovered later that builder grade meant the cheapest that you can do it. And it seems like even a lot of these builders of moderately priced houses that they're kind of trapped by the market because they might spend $10,000 more to make the house more energy efficient yet because it's all hidden the buyers, all they see is, "Well, Hey, this other house is $10,000 cheaper and it looks just the same on the outside and our payments $19 a month less."
And so it's always struck me that at least on the residential side, that A, I don't know that how many builders really care and the ones that do, I don't know how able they are to educate the market to get them to pay that 80 premium.
John: Right. And that is the struggle is, again it takes the right kind of buyer whether they come into the project with that mindset. So they already understand that or do they have a willingness to listen and learn and consider that a lot of our work is what I would call ultra high-end residential work, extremely expensive projects. And what is interesting though is the bulk of the projects we work on, the owners are extremely interested in having the project be as energy efficient as possible. And so we do a lot of geothermal design where yes, it's more expensive upfront, but it also has a greener footprint to it if you will. And it also saves money on the heating and cooling bills over time.
Dave: So isn't it interesting the people who could most afford artificially high maintenance costs are the very people that are more concerned about it. And so maybe that's how they ended up to the point in life where they could afford that ultra expensive house is because they watched those costs in their businesses for decades.
John: Right. Exactly.
Dave: Okay. Well so speaking of clients, so just out of curiosity, what are some of the biggest misconceptions that clients have about working with your company? Is it that they think you're too expensive? What are the misconceptions that you find that potential customers have?
John: Well, sometimes we have clients and ultimately it leads to them not being a right fit for us and us not being a right fit for them. And when it comes down to paying for our professional services of them not understanding the value of what that represents, if we design something a certain way, the construction costs may be less as a result of that or that our plans allow them to receive multiple bids on their project. And therefore they'll get competitive pricing and save money there. So again, those are some of the common misconceptions of they will have worked on a project before where there never was an engineer involved. And so they had a contractor that said, "Oh, we can handle all that ourselves." And so that's been one of the big, common misconceptions of why do we need to pay for an engineer when our contractor says they can handle it himself?
Dave: Yeah. I can understand that. I have a good friend, who's a high end residential architect and he finds the same thing that the contractor will say, "Hey, this is close enough to another house we did. We already have those plans, why spend the money for an architect."
John: Right, right.
Dave: Yeah. That makes sense.
John: So that's probably the biggest misconception is the value that a design professional does bring to the table.
Dave: Yeah. I can certainly understand that. Well, I'd like to now shift gears a little bit and talk about your podcast if you're up for that. So what prompted you to start the podcast?
John: I think where that came back from was, again, you had mentioned Strategic coach, and there were a number of colleagues in the program that had started podcasting and I became very intrigued by that. And at first I think what it was was I could hear their stories and it became easy for me to understand why they would do that. And that I could see the value it would bring to their business. But I struggled with where is the value for me by me starting a podcast.
But then I think through talking with several people, you soon realize that everyone has a story to tell. And when you're in business people obviously want to work with you and if you have paying customers, then they value your service. So that means you do have something to offer to the marketplace to share. So I would say it came from, again, talking with individuals and in Strategic Coach program and encouraging me to start one and see where it led me because I've always enjoyed listening to podcasts myself. So I think that's where it all came from.
Dave: Okay. Yeah. And that's similar to my story as well. So what have been some of the best things about having a podcast?
John: Well, as you mentioned earlier, mine has been very limited in the number of episodes I've done. But what I have found from the very limited amount was I've had a few instances where I've talked with some new and slash potential clients. And we had talked about different systems that we've designed or different projects and all of a sudden I was able to say, "Well, I have a podcast on this. And if you want to have a high level understanding of how these work or what's involved with it, give it a listen." I can remember speaking with a couple of different firms and when they heard that I had a podcast, it was like kind of like this almost like, "Oh, you have a radio show type of thing." So I found that that was one of the really neat things about that was just that again, it's easy to have a podcast, but then actually having one and saying that you have one is I think a nice little tool to have.
Dave: Yeah. So if I hear you, what I think you're saying is that the best thing was what it did for your credibility and reputation with potential clients. Is that about right?
John: Exactly. Yes, absolutely.
Dave: Yeah. And I've found the same thing. So we're now going to, you kind of alluded to the question that you sounded like you knew it was coming. So I'd like to talk to you about the challenges of maintaining a regular podcast release schedule, but let me just set up the situation for the listeners. So the name of your podcast is How... I'll refresh my memory. I just had it pulled-
John: How Great Buildings Work.
Dave: How Great Buildings Work. Yes. And so I had learned that you had this podcast and I said, "Great, I'm embarking on a long solo, fat tire bike ride in the winter time." This was over Christmas a couple of months ago. And so I found the podcast, I subscribed to it, I noticed there were a few episodes. I always like to start at the beginning and listen in chronological order probably because I'm kind of an accountant kind of guy. So I started and I finished the fourth one right as my ride finished. And I especially enjoyed the episode on chill beams.
And so then I thought that's really cool. And then the next time I went for my next solo mountain bike ride, I thought I'm going to fire up John's podcast and listen to like the next three or four episodes. And you know how the story ends. It turns out that it turns out there were only four episodes and I'd listened to them all in a single sitting. I didn't know I was binge listening to your episodes. And so I'd like to kind of talk a bit about that, but to kind of set it up for the listeners, so you're actually in very good company. I don't know if you know these statistics, but so there are roughly 1.7 million podcasts, but there are less than 400 shows that have broken the glass ceiling of at least 10 episodes and having published in the last 90 days. And to give you an idea of just how challenging this is, do you know who Kevin O'Neill is AKA Mr. Wonderful on Shark Tank?
John: Yes.
Dave: So I heard him on a podcast a couple months ago and I really enjoyed him. And then I thought, "I wonder if he has a podcast." So I looked and he had one called Ask Mr. Wonderful. And it released in November of 2018, same thing I started at the beginning and in his last episode, he started November of 2018. The last episode was December 31st of '18, he was only able to release six episodes and then that was it. And then like it just, it no more. So anyway, I just wanted to make you feel a little better that even a guy like that who has media access and Twitter followers and all the resources to be able to succeed at a podcast, even he couldn't break that magic 10 episode barrier. So anyways, so now we get to the question part, now that I've set that up.
And so since Kevin is not on the show for me to ask him like what happened, you're the lucky guy in the hot seat. So in my experience I find, or my supposition is that there's four reasons that companies stop releasing new episodes. So one is they never intended to have more than a certain number of episodes or they intended to have more than say four episodes, but that it turned out, they just ran out of topics or they intended to have more than say four episodes, but it just became too time consuming or too overwhelming, or they intended to have more, but they just kind of lost interest in it. It just turned out. It really wasn't their cup of tea. So do one of those scenarios, describe what happened with you?
John: Yeah. To a degree
Dave: Okay. Or if not your why don't you give me your-
John: No, I will. I always intended to have more than four. My intention was to have at, at a minimum one podcast per month. And I really, really enjoyed it and I think I had actually recorded five podcasts and I love talking to people and hearing them explain what it is they do and why it's unique and similar to what you're doing. I find that it's really... I enjoyed it a lot. I enjoyed being on your side of the microphone more so than the side I'm on now.
Dave: Okay. Me too by the way.
John: Yeah. So but with the topics, I have a list somewhere I think in my computer of all these topics of at first I thought, "Well, what in the heck am I going to talk about?" And then so I started putting down a list of all these different topics of things that I've come across in my years of being in this business. And it really kind of became endless what I could do. And so that hasn't been the issue and then I started to with my assistant have somewhat of a process in place of getting them produced and cleaned up and then getting the techs put together the show notes. But I think for me it really came down to that end of it was, it was just a process that, again, it wasn't that difficult, but at the time it was more than what we had the bandwidth to do. Again, it became a little bit too time consuming, not so much for me at all but for my assistant who was putting things together.
Dave: Yeah. And because life is like that, right? Like in isolation, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal or it takes up that much time, but this was one of a hundred initiatives that were going on simultaneously and something had to give. And I know I had a bit with my first podcast show, after COVID I had about a several month, I call it in hindsight, a sabbatical. And I think we didn't release an episode for maybe four or five months, maybe six. And the thing I noticed was it was like any other regular activity, the more time that passed the harder it was to like restart it. And you have the same experience?
John: Absolutely. Yes. I found that to be really the biggest thing was once I got away from it, then yeah there became more and more other things that seem to take priority over the podcast. Whereas when I started, I had great momentum. I think I got my five episodes recorded in a month and a half. And I had a lot of energy going into it and then life happens and people got busy and before long it's two years ago.
Dave: Yeah. Yeah. No, I get it. And the guests, this new podcast, Podcasting Stories, it's all about people who are considering a podcast or who have had a podcast for a short period of time or a long period of time, and just sort of the insights to share with people who were considering having a podcast. So I appreciate your candor and I hope you didn't feel like I was putting you too much on the spot there.
John: No, not at all. It's you have a podcast about podcasts. And I think it's a great question of there's people that start them and then like me they haven't continued through with them. And I think it's really interesting to find out why they haven't done it. And I think it's also good for people who haven't started one yet that are thinking, "Gee, I'm interested in this, but I don't know how." And it's not as easy as one would think it is. There is a bit involved to it, but again, I think that you've demonstrated and that having a podcast can be a great tool to have for promoting your business.
Dave: Yeah. That has certainly been my experience. So with that in mind what might be the advice you would have for somebody who is listening to this, who's contemplating a podcast and they may be not certain that they want to move forward, that they're sort of on the fence. What advice would you have or what questions do you think they should ask themselves? Because just to set the stage, I have have another company in our sole focus is helping people have podcasts. The services called podcast done for you. And even though we're trying to help people, really the last thing we want is somebody who would launch and then stop quickly. That's not good for them or for us or for anybody.
So we're doing kind of everything we can that if somebody's not the right fit to discouraging them from starting a podcast. So what thoughts might you have or questions that you might suggest somebody consider before they launch a podcast?
John: Yeah, I think first of all really define what it is you want to have a podcast about and then search on the internet for a podcast that may or may not be somewhat related to what you want to do and give it a listen if it or they exist out there. And then reach out to friends and colleagues and say, "Hey, here's my idea. Is this something you would be interested in listening to?" I personally for me, I like to gather facts on everything before acting and so I did a search myself to just see what there was out there about buildings and different building systems and anything with that industry. And honestly, at the time I didn't find really a thing.
And so I thought, "Well, okay. So there isn't really much out there." And then I thought, "Well, maybe that's for good reason because no one else is going to find this interesting, like I am."
Dave: Maybe.
John: But then as I started calling people to be guests or potential guests, a lot of them had said in the industry of, I am so excited you're doing this because someone has been needing to put together a podcast so that we can get information out. So I did again, a very small validation of yes, there are people that will listen to this and so I should try and do it. And I think the other big hurdle that I had, which I'm gathering most people have is no one wants to listen to themselves. And I would be curious to find out how many people listened to their own podcasts, because I know that I've only listened to very little of myself because I don't like hearing my own voice.
I think that's something that people just need to know that utmost everyone feels that way. And you just have to put yourself out there, and this is a great big world and you've listed the number of episodes that are out there, people are searching and listening to things. And so again, find a topic that interests you and then reach out to find someone to help produce it and find an expert that can do that for you so that all you're doing is talking about what you know and are interested in.
Dave: Well, I think that's great advice. I would agree because I've been asked that same question before and my answer was similar to yours. So I can't believe we're already more than 40 minutes into this. How time flies when you're having fun. So here's a question that I don't remember who I borrowed this from, but I'm going to ask it anyway. So what advice would you have for your 25 year old self?
John: Boy, in terms of a podcast or?
Dave: No. No, just life. Life and business. Not even podcasts, just business and or life, just in general. What do you wish you knew when you were 25 that you know now that you could go back in time and tell that knucklehead 25 year-old?
John: I think probably the biggest high level view is I read the book, The Slight Edge and learning that A having goals I would say is probably what I would tell myself of really pay a lot attention to your goals and constantly read your goals and refine those. Have short-term and long-term goals, but back to the slight edge of knowing that things take time. And a lot of success, most success in life does not happen overnight. And it's the result of continuing to refine what it is you're doing and making those slight improvements day over day and making those slight improvements just in your life in general day over day, rather than thinking, "I'll worry about it tomorrow, rather than deal with it today." So I think that would be my advice to my 25 year old self is again, know that what you do today matters down the road and continually develop good habits and focus on your goals.
Dave: I think that's great advice and so I think another way to say it is to be patient and make daily progress.
John: Yes,
Dave: I would agree completely. Well, John, it's been a real treat for me to have you on the podcast.
John: Well, thank you. I've enjoyed it very much myself.
Dave: So let's-
John: It's been a lot of fun.
Dave: I'm glad that you've enjoyed it. Well, let's wrap up. So the podcast, the name of that is How Great Buildings Work, because you know, not everybody is up for listening to 500 episodes of a podcast, so if you're looking for a great podcast that has defined all their wisdom to four episodes that you can easily capture, this is the podcast for you. And I mean it seriously, you have some great guests and I've learned a lot about building, especially the chilled beams that really resonated with me. So that's that and the name of the firm is JM Engineering. What is the website?
John: www.jmengineering.net.
Dave: Okay. And if somebody wants to reach out to you what's the best way to do so? LinkedIn, Twitter send you an email.
John: Yeah. LinkedIn, I'm on LinkedIn. John Melvin, I can be found there or through our website.
Dave: Okay. Super. Well, was there anything that I didn't ask you that you wish I'd asked?
John: No, I think you covered it quite well as I was expecting.
Dave: Awesome. Well, John, I will look forward to our next time that we're in the same city and can ride bicycles together.
John: Oh, same here David.
Dave: All right. You have a great day.
John: You too. Thank you.
Dave: All right, bye. And there we have it. Another great episode. Don't forget to check out the show notes at www.podcastingstories.com. This podcast is brought to you by YourPodcast team. If you have ever considered having your own podcast, head over to www.yourpodcast.team, to learn more about how they can help you. That's it for this episode, have a great week and we'll talk to you next time.